Prime-focus dish - LNB recommendation

moonbase

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Anyone serious about feed and scalar positioning for C-Band might find the picture attached below useful.

For maximum signal level SNR dB, the feed rim opening should not be at the focal length of the dish, it should be closer to the dish.
The logic is to get the focal point of the dish at a depth inside the feed where it allows for maximum rejection of external interference yet receives full illumination from the dish face.
This optimum position of the feed from the dish is further enhanced by correct scalar positioning along the feed barrel.

The distance from the dish is defined by the beamwidth angle of the dish and the internal diameter of the C-Band feed.
It is simple pythagorean maths for a right angled triangle.

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C-Band FPD.jpg
 

RimaNTSS

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Inspired by discussions in this thread, made this Frankenstein. That is why I am saying that buying out-of-shelf is much easier, cheaper and ready to be used out of the box. Unfortunately, I do not have PFA installed to test performance.

 

ArloG

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I am compelled to reply. There seems to be a bit of fuzziness on the scalar subject. And please accept my personal experience from quite a few "bringing back to life" of old prime focus dishes.
You should shy away from lnbf and flange combinations if the feed throat depth cannot be adjusted separate from the scalar position.
You would think that every dish will be a perfect parabaloid. Unfortunately it is not so.
In a ideal world a 4 meter dish would set perfectly inside of a 5 meter dish, a 3 meter inside of that. And so on. But it may not be so unless you have dishes by the same manufacturer or those who manufacture to strict design specs. Andrews, Prodelin, milspec., etc. They do.

There are calculations where stretching strings across a dish face and measuring the diameter and center depth. And determining the f and f/D.
Then you know where a scalar should be positioned and where the feedhorn throat should be set in relation to the dish center.
Again. Only for a perfect parabolic shape.
Try to think of an artificial solar or lunar eclipse. You hold a disc in front of your eye and move it out or in until you see only the very edge of the moon or sun.
The perfect position for a scalar is where you're not "blinding" a portion of the diameter and not exposing more than the diameter. Get it?
Then. Moving the lnbf throat in or out for signal peak. While retaining proper skew angle. And assuring the throat points at the exact dish center.

So as you should see. A fixed lnb/flange may not let you experience the best performance you could.
In my image. At the initial setup of a c band scalar and lnbf for c band.
The f & f/D calculations were performed. Everything was bolted in place per the results. The lnbf was peaked for signal.
Although the calculations and lnbf spec sheet said to set the f/D to, let's say, 30. Actual signal peak was when the throat was a bit closer to the dish face.
The photo is from setting up an adjustable scalar depth method by the way of long bolts and lock nuts.
When finished, everything that looks off-kilter was perfectly aligned ans well as could be.

The Geosat Pro ku banf lnbf "sidecar" setup is there and looks offset. I have a buttonhook feed with the extension arm bolted to an aluminum casting at the dish face.
Aiming the ku lnbf at the center of the dish killed a portion of the signal. So an offset of ~5 degrees East was found the be a good placement.
And even though the ku lnbf is on a 12' dish. It only sees a little over 1m of it.
That is where a proper lnbf/scalar would be much better. There are tricks where people are removing the weather shield from the front and cutting off a portion of the built in scalar.
As the lnbf is for an offset feed dish, its appearance is indeed a cone. As opposed to a flat face scalar of the c band one.

There is mention of waterproofing. Not a bad thing. But I believe a little breathing necessary too. There are feed boots out there. For my amateur radio coax connections I use clear Flex Seal. Over 6 years on a few connections in the tower and still working great. Nothing fancy, no Coax-seal self amalgamating tape. Perhaps mask off a flange and give it a few coats and call it a day. And save the rest of the can to make a screen door boat.
Not looking for negative replies on this one guys. I've done it quite well so far. And it took a few tries to get there. Now its repeatable and works perfect.

Feed
In post #41 although a bit confusing to look at. What he states is for a perfect world with a dish of perfect parabolic shape.
You can perform all of the calculations in the world. Even the slightest variation in dish shape will cause your feed assembly to need different in/out placement.
If you read again. Some dishes will focus the signal to a point that is different from a seemingly identical one. Even if it is a few millimeters or a centimeter or two.
DBS subscription satellite services have downlink power quite a bit higher than FTA services.
So any feed movement may appear as if it didn't really make that much difference.
Moonie is correct. Everyone should already understand that the feed throat aperture for any antenna requires the signal to enter it slightly further inside.
You're peaking for signal. Not using a micrometer to establish absolute positioning for an assembly line kit.
All of the calculations in the world may tell you on paper that the focal point should be at X cm. The actual feed throat front will be slightly closer to the dish face.
No exceptions.
Should you arrive at a set of calculations. For example you have just obtained a dish with no feed mount. And you head out to the metal supply to get a length of tubing to make your own triangular feed support arms. And fabricate them with no provision to move the scalar. As the calculations tel you that it should be placed 131 cm from the dish face center.
And you bolt everything up. At that distance the calculations say the lnbf should be placed at the 30 distance scale stamped in the housing.
And you grab a strong signal. Tweak the lnbf for highest signal level and polarity balance. And call it a day. Not realizing that.....
Physically moving the scalar distance just a bit closer or further away. And then peaking the lnbf again could give even more signal.
It is a delicate dance if you want to get the highest signal for a transponder that you are trying to receive and you are in the fringe of the footprint.
 

RimaNTSS

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And fabricate them with no provision to move the scalar
I fully agree with you. That is why I like to have all feedarms length-adjustable and also to have possibility to adjust position of the LNB and the scalar independently.
 

moonbase

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Moving on from my previous picture that illustrated the logic behind the focal point being inside the feed, I have attached a picture below that summarises some real world tests.
The picture shows the fluctuation of SNR dB caused by moving the C-Band feed closer and further away from the dish and the impact of the scalar position along the feed barrel.

Measurements were taken from 4 different C-Band frequencies from 53.0W using both Left and Right circular polarity signals.
The focal length of the dish was 755mm and the three columns headed with 745, 750 and 755 indicate the distance of the feed rim aperture from the dish centre.
At the value of 755, the feed rim aperture was at the focal length of the dish. At the value of 745, the feed rim aperture was 10mm closer to the dish than the focal length.

Scalar positions in millimetre (mm) along the feed barrel starts at 0 which represents the scaler concentric rings being flush with the feed rim aperture.
A value of 10 indicates the scalar concentric rings are 10mm along the feed barrel from the feed rim aperture, and so on.

The right and left circular polarity signals were converted to linear signals using a polo pipe.
Another test using a dielectric plate for conversion to linear signals gave reduced signal levels compared to the polo pipe.
As the majority of the satellites with C-Band frequencies that are visible to a UK location use circular polarity a polo pipe seems to be worthy of consideration.

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FSP 53.0E.jpg
 

moonbase

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The feed scalar assembly that was used to get the test results shown above is illustrated in the picture attached below.

A feed clamp is used to hold the feed barrel which is a polo pipe that converts circular polarity to linear polarity.
The clamping arrangement allows movement of the polo pipe closer and further away from the dish to try to obtain the optimum position.

The opening end of the polo pipe was machined to allow the scalar to slide back and forth for further SNR dB optimisation.

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Adjustable Feed-Scalar.jpg
 

MickeEst

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How this long pipe between scalar rings and LNB itself affects signal strenght and quality?
Theoretically it should not have major effect, as ultra high frequency signals can be transported and indeed transported via hollow tubes instead of coax.
 

moonbase

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How this long pipe between scalar rings and LNB itself affects signal strenght and quality?
Theoretically it should not have major effect, as ultra high frequency signals can be transported and indeed transported via hollow tubes instead of coax.


The SNR dB level is increased with the polo pipe for circular polarity signals as it does not use a dielectric plate.
If I remove the polo pipe and place the LNBF directly in the clamp with a dielectric plate inside the LNBF the SND dB level is reduced compare to the polo pipe for circular polarity.
 

ArloG

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A few questions you should probably ask yourself before committing to the polarization pipe setup.
It's a one-way-only method. In other words.
Firstly you're taking a circular polarized signal and using the extension, depolarizing the signal to feed into a linear lnbf.
If your intention is to use a fixed position dish to receive a circular polarized satellite only.
Why not simply purchase a circular polarized lnbf in the first place?

I found the depolarizing tube quite interesting. And it prompted me to do a bit of research. I kind of thought Cool.
Yet. Depending on the reception footprint for your particular location. If you live in a good illuminated geographical area.
Getting blinded by all of the extra hardware would make experimenting with different polarities a complete start-over in tearing down and all involved in the lnb alignment.

Remember. A setup like is shown is one-way-only. You will receive circular polarities (converted to linear for the lnbf).
But receiving linear polarized transponders cannot be done. If you have a steerable polar mount.
That is where a linear lnbf shines. If you normally receive linear polarized satellites and want to view the occasional circular sat.
Go outside, pull the rain cap. Slip in the dielectric slab and put the rain cap back on. You're golden.

And I can fortify it further. You may be led to believe that using a dielectric depolarizer (slab) to allow you to receive circular polarized transponders.
And
That your received signal will be greatly attenuated versus using a dedicated circular lnbf or the depolarizer tube.
As I do not have nor never used the tube. I would guess its really negligible.
Again. If you live outside of a footprint's "sweet spot". Yet your only intention of watching a single, circular satellite.
Get a circular lnbf.
If you focus specifically on the tube method. The same major microwave product manufacturers also offer an extension with the slab.
Again. One way only with the tube, Either way with a slab.

Further. As I scanned my receivable arc and entered satellites into my DISEqC 1.2 controller memory locations.
I was trying to locate SES 6 at 40.5 W. It is a circular polarized satellite.
I "kind of" knew where it would be and blindscanned until I snagged a few transponders.
Then peaked the dish for strongest signal. Stored it in memory.
Then did another blindscan. And a channel scan.
I received a few transponders with marginal signal strength. Watchable definitely. But if you look at charts. Not as many as shown on the listing.
I had never had a need to use the slab sent with my Titanium Satellite C2W Wideband Dual Output lnbf.
Got out the step ladder and slipped the slab in the throat. Came back in.
What was (from memory) a 9 or so dB signal was now 14 dB.
And then after re scanning the satellite. Every transponder was logged.
To be honest I am not sure if the DC 2 transponders did scan. Enigma 2 receivers are a bit picky about them. Sometimes you do, sometimes you don't.
It's all in if the receivers demodulator IC plays nice with them. My DC 2 receiver does. But the DC 2encryption is only opened during promos., etc.
Anyway. I scanned in a lot of channels on SES 6. With really good signal.

Then. Moving the dish back to a linear satellite. With the slab still in place. I was only able to receive a few channels.
Until removing the slab. Then signal was restored just as before.

Now. If you're still following me. That's what you get from experimenting in this hobby.
I would never be blinded by bling. Microwaves are picky.
I've had a fellow from the NL contact me showing his steerable dish setup with four 1.2m offset dishes assembled in a clover leaf. With very good signals focused on a single lnbf.
Pretty cool and creative.
Definitely some well earned time spent there. And nice and neat too. I could say quite professional.
Not being negative or positive of any of the prior suggestions. I would question a guy saying that his 1.4m dish in the UK receiving satellites beamed to Africa and footprints showing the UK in the "deep fringe" reception area. Could be. Could be cow patties in a field too. Maybe he sampled the little mushrooms on top of them?? I like proof.
Its your money really. You should be just fine with a linear lnbf if linear polarized satellites is your prime reception choices.
And a dielectric polarizer occasionally slipped in the feed throat is not a bad thing. Seriously.
Or you could simply go the dual lnbf dish mount way also. One for linear, the other for circular. And call it a day.
 

moonbase

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...I would question a guy saying that his 1.4m dish in the UK receiving satellites beamed to Africa and footprints showing the UK in the "deep fringe" reception area. Could be. Could be cow patties in a field too. Maybe he sampled the little mushrooms on top of them?...

Not sure where the 1.4m dish based in the UK came from, can't recall anyone mentioning fringe reception from C-Band African beams receivable in the UK on a 1.4m dish?
With a motorised dish traversing the arc visible to a UK location, the majority of the C-Band satellites receivable are circular polarity. Hence my tests to find the best option for circular polarity reception.
Linear polarity satellites are in the minority.

From tests of both a polariser barrel and an LNBF with dielectric plate using the same dish on circular polarity satellites I found that a polariser barrel outperforms a linear LNBF with a dielectric plate.
Others may not agree, I am simply stating my personal findings in real world tests from a UK location using a motorised dish across the visible arc.

The other reason why I prefer a polariser barrel is that it can also be used on linear polarity satellites.
There is no need to swap out the polariser barrel for a standalone LNBF on linear polarity satellites, there is minimal difference in SNR dB signal level between the two options.
This observation is based on my personal testing of linear polarity satellites and comparing the SNR dB levels from a polariser barrel and a standalone LNBF.

It's up to the user to decide what equipment to go for if they wish to have a go at C-Band reception. My posts earlier in this topic have illustrated how I approach it.
No cowpats, no mushrooms, simply half decent equipment on a correctly aligned dish.
 
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Espinosa

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https://aerial.obchodmrp.sk/lnb-uni-gi-209-flange-platinium-golden-i.-1213 one link from najnakup. Najnakup itself is web page where all offers from many web stores are put together.
It seems it's not possible to order from this page, they ship only to 4 countries. If someone can buy and send then please contact me.

I think it is still possible to get (ebay) Invacom flange LNB. Even used one should be OK. Then you will only need to attach feedhorn for PFA. The black ring on the pictures is just a plastic spacer between OD of the feedhorn and ID of the LNB-holder (usually 65mm).
Yes, I ordered Twin Inverto and found Twin Invacom flange LNB on ebay, but I'm still checking Quad Invacom availability in some shops. I would like to compare performance of these two and GI-209 as well.
 

Tomek22

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It seems it's not possible to order from this page, they ship only to 4 countries. If someone can buy and send then please contact me.


Yes, I ordered Twin Inverto and found Twin Invacom flange LNB on ebay, but I'm still checking Quad Invacom availability in some shops. I would like to compare performance of these two and GI-209 as well.
Write to them on email directly and they will ship to you (i think)
mailto:[email protected]

This week i ordered to Poland two GI-209P LNBs without any problem.
 

FabFab

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For Ku band, it's not much about LNB but more about dish size, since fraction of dB won't change much. If you are interested in low symbol rate feeds i'd rather pay attention to local oscillator stability more than noise figure
 

Espinosa

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Finally I got a few LNBs for PFA and wanted to test them today. I removed IBU which I used on my PFA and replaced it with Inverto C120 + feedhorn, but turned out it doesn't show any signs of life. After that I replaced that one with GI-209P and again the same story, no signal. With IBU it works perfectly, It immediately shows some signals. Is there anything specific I should set up for this type of LNBs? I use a PC card and Crazy Scan for checking the signal levels + sat finder to orient myself during adjustment.
 

moonbase

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Finally I got a few LNBs for PFA and wanted to test them today. I removed IBU which I used on my PFA and replaced it with Inverto C120 + feedhorn, but turned out it doesn't show any signs of life. After that I replaced that one with GI-209P and again the same story, no signal. With IBU it works perfectly, It immediately shows some signals. Is there anything specific I should set up for this type of LNBs? I use a PC card and Crazy Scan for checking the signal levels + sat finder to orient myself during adjustment.


There should be no reason why an Inverto C120 LNB does not work straight out of the box as it should have the same local oscillator (L.O.) values as your IBU.
Have you set the polarity skew correctly and checked the feedhorn distance from the dish, they are the only things I can think of apart from the cabling connection?
 

Espinosa

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There should be no reason why an Inverto C120 LNB does not work straight out of the box as it should have the same local oscillator (L.O.) values as your IBU.
Have you set the polarity skew correctly and checked the feedhorn distance from the dish, they are the only things I can think of apart from the cabling connection?
When I connect IBU a Sat Finder immediately gets noisy even while LNB is on the ground. When I connect Inverto C120 or GI-209P using the same cable there is no noise coming from Sat Finder. I was thinking maybe a cable conductor is not long enough for LNB connectors to make a proper connection? Either that or devices are broken but I refuse to believe that 2 new devices could be broken...
 
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